February 28, 2006Where Are the Accountability and Leadership?Another America hater (but one who served in Iraq at least): When an Army investigator asked Col. Thomas Pappas, the top military intelligence officer at Abu Ghraib, how intimidation with dogs could be allowed under this treaty, he gave the chilling reply, "I did not personally look at that with regard to the Geneva Convention." Colonel Pappas later testified that he was taking his cue on the use of dogs from Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, who took over detainee operations in Iraq after running them in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. Amen Mr. Lagouranis. Amen. Posted by Gregory at February 28, 2006 01:54 PM | TrackBack (0)Comments
Is it really fair to describe the writer as an "America Hater" or were you being tongue-in-cheek? Posted by: Consul-At-Arms at February 28, 2006 04:04 PM | Permalink to this commentrest assured we're in tongue in cheek land here. everytime one of us deigns to condemn the horrific damage that has been wrought because of our defining torture down via the Yoo memorandum (since belatedly, and half-heartedly, repudiated) and too vague instructions to the troops in the field (or barely veiled encouragement to push the limits a la Rumsfeld)--we are castigated as kvetchers, America haters, spineless cowards who aren't willing to be 'manly' and get the good job done. i consider people like Lagouranis, Fishback, Mora etc great Americans. And torture apologists as, not only amoral, but also plain dumb (there is no compelling evidence that the techniques authorized by Rumsfeld have provided us a plethora of new intel). Instead, they have damaged our international reputation greatly and stoked greater hatred. This is not the way to fight a global counterinsurgency. We need new war leaders who haven't been hugely discredited. Urgently. Posted by: greg at February 28, 2006 04:12 PM | Permalink to this commentAnd torture apologists as, not only amoral, but also plain dumb (there is no compelling evidence that the techniques authorized by Rumsfeld have provided us a plethora of new intel). And even if, and that is a big and undecided "if", these methods did yield slightly more intel, such gains would have to be weighed against the costs that Greg alludes to: they have damaged our international reputation greatly and stoked greater hatred. This is not the way to fight a global counterinsurgency. So the bar concerning the utility of the use of abuse/torture must be higher than other methods because of the built in costs which are not insignificant. Either way, Amen indeed. Posted by: Eric Martin at February 28, 2006 04:20 PM | Permalink to this comment Amen is right. It's now plain as day that the long terms costs of their rapacious decisionmaking well exceeds any short term marginal benefits. The fish rots from the head, etc. Posted by: fnook at March 1, 2006 01:39 AM | Permalink to this commentWell, fortunately this Republic only has another two and a half years of total and utter incompetence and venality to suffer through. What's the worst that could happen? Posted by: stickler at March 1, 2006 05:10 AM | Permalink to this commentRight. Utter incompetence. Fifty million liberated. Booming economy. No terror attacks on America. And competence would be defined how? By how America's enemies perceive us. "America hater" is not tongue-in-cheek, merely descriptive. Although "freedom hater" would be more apropos. And "chilling" evil consists of using dogs to frighten prisoners? How about the dogs in every airport, sniffing everyone? Does their use constitute torture? The slippery slope here is going the other way. Dirty looks are not unAmerican. And killing barbarian murderers is, unfortunately, a uniquely American virtue. Posted by: Robert Speirs at March 1, 2006 01:43 PM | Permalink to this comment"Fifty million liberated. Booming economy. No terror attacks on America." Thats one way to look at it, though it's a bit shortsighted I'd argue. And your liberation rhetoric rings quite hollow to the familys of the dead, not all of whom are "barbarian murderers" killed at the hands of virtuous Americans. In any event, the issue on the table is American torture and the deeply flawed decisionmaking and insulting legal hairsplitting by the current administration, including Bush himself, that allowed us to sink to the level we currently find ourselves. You may not think it's a big deal, but growing numbers of us think it's horrific, unnecessary and a serious long term liability to American's security. Just as mafia bosses go to great lengths to shield themselves from the consequences of the crimes they instigate, the White House and Pentagon appear to have instituted their interrogation policies in such a way that policymakers would be well insulated from criminal liability. Anthony Lagouranis accuses former Abu Ghraib commander, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, of "a stunning betrayal of his subordinates and Army values." The accusation could just as appropriately be directed at every other member in the chain of command above Miller. Posted by: Paul Woodward at March 1, 2006 05:18 PM | Permalink to this commentWhen I read "another American hater," I fliched at this characterization. Although you later backtracked and explained that you meant it tongue in cheek, I still think that it was a low blow, given the fact that Mr. Lougranis wrote an honest and personal commentary on how an amoral policy from the top in the Department of Defense affected those on the bottom in the military hierarchy. I read my latest entry and forgot to put "market" after food in the last paragraph. Please excuse the typo, because even now I can see how much my year in Vietnam altered my destiny and wounded my soul. Posted by: George Hoffman at March 1, 2006 06:11 PM | Permalink to this comment"Although you later backtracked and explained that you meant it tongue in cheek, I still think that it was a low blow, given the fact that Mr. Lougranis wrote an honest and personal commentary on how an amoral policy from the top in the Department of Defense affected those on the bottom in the military hierarchy." He didn't "backtrack," he clarified. IMHO, he shouldn't have needed to since the context of what he wrote was clear - his sarcasm was decidedly not directed at Mr. Lagouranis himself. "Low blow" is a pretty terrible thing to say about a piece that is, pretty obviously, an encomium to Mr. Lagouranis, not a criticism. I admire your account of your supermarket conversation, though. Posted by: Jim Henley at March 2, 2006 12:58 AM | Permalink to this commentthanks jim, have people heard of sarcasm? george, as a reader of this blog, how much clearer could it be that i view people like lagouranis and fishback as bona fide, genuine American heroes? Posted by: greg at March 2, 2006 04:55 AM | Permalink to this commentTerrible! Mistreating those poor dogs. Posted by: Cardiakke at March 2, 2006 01:15 PM | Permalink to this comment |
About Belgravia Dispatch
Gregory Djerejian, an international lawyer and business executive, comments intermittently on global politics, finance & diplomacy at this site. The views expressed herein are solely his own and do not represent those of any organization. More About the Author Email the Author Recent Entries
Lunch w/ the FT...
Robert Strange McNamara Biden on Israel/Iran Mea Culpa (Part II) Something of A Mea Culpa Search
The News
Financial Times
New York Times Wall Street Journal The Economist The Times The Spectator Daily Telegraph The New Yorker Washington Post New Criterion New Republic National Review The Atlantic The American Conservative Harpers The Week The Guardian Weekly Standard The Nation Real Clear Politics Le Figaro Le Monde El Pais Pravda The Blogs
Across the Aisle
Marc Ambinder American Footprints The American Scene Bainbridge Jack Balkin Becker-Posner Balloon Juice Steve Clemons Juan Cole The Corner Crooked Timber Cunning Realist Democracy Arsensal Daniel Drezner Washington Monthly James Fallows Glenn Greenwald Nikolas Gvosdev Huffington Post Mark Kleiman Joshua Landis Daniel Larison Marc Lynch Josh Marshall Progressive Realist Obsidian Wings George Packer Gideon Rachman Andrew Sullivan Katrina vanden Heuvel Volokh Conspiracy Steve Walt James Wolcott Matthew Yglesias Foreign Affairs Commentariat
Law & Finance
Barron's
Bloomberg Bull and Bear Wise Calculated Risk Marketwatch Contrary Investor Corporate Counsel Blog DealBreaker Deal Lawyers Blog Financial Sense Forbes Fortune Hussman Funds Bruce MacEwen Barry Ritholz Nouriel Roubini Safe Haven SCOTUS Blog Seeking Alpha The Street 10b-5 Daily Yahoo Finance Think Tanks
Security
Books
American Scholar
LRB NYRB NYT Book Review Paris Review TLS Granta Grand Street Arts & Letters Daily TNR's The Book The City
Curbed
Eater Gothamist NY Magazine NY Post NY Press New York Observer Tribeca Trib Vanishing NY Village Voice Epicurean Corner
Archives
|
|||